The modern image of the Russian army looks, frankly, pale. Yes, we are undergoing transformations, and we are not losing hope, and we are trying to look forward to the future with optimism. But here's what's remarkable-sad. Currently, there is a whole generation of officers and ensigns serving in the army and navy, in the view of which the army looks eternally persecuted, downtrodden and forgotten. And this is exactly the army that not so long ago was the most powerful, having a colossal spiritual and moral potential, deep historical roots and glorious traditions.

Only our army was able to stop and clear half of Europe of the fascist plague, Even greater France, the eternal enemy of Germany, was conquered in just two weeks. On our Russian wall, Hitler's vaunted machine broke off the teeth of its flywheel. The great army of a great country proved once again that it has no equal in the world.

Today, the successor to the victorious army, the Russian Armed Forces are in a severe crisis that has been going on for several years. The current lieutenants had just started school when the April breeze of ' eighty-five began to blow, then turned into an all-out tornado. The army held out, but it looked like a mighty tree after a storm - with broken branches, sparse leaves.

Today, the young defenders of the country, alas, do not know another army.

We decided to offer readers a conversation between two military personnel belonging to different generations. The name of the first of them is known to the entire army. The name of the second one is well-known among the younger generation of armed defenders of the Fatherland, and is perfectly familiar to those who have passed through hot spots.

So, the conversation about the views on life today and the past, on the state of affairs in the army now and in the past, about our historical roots and future opportunities is led by veterans of soldiers and military conflicts: a participant in the Great Patriotic War, Marshal of the Soviet Union, former Minister of Defense of the USSR Dmitry Timofeyevich YAZOV and Hero of the Russian Federation, a participant in the wars in Afghanistan, Lieutenant Colonel Vladimir Nikolaevich Kolybabinsky.

V. KOLYBABINSKY:

- Comrade Marshal, I want to thank you immediately for taking the opportunity to meet with us. You, an old soldier and front-line soldier, know the price of Victory.

Unfortunately, the concept of the Great Victory, sacred for many generations, has been noticeably devalued in recent years.

It is clear that the crisis of society, the authorities, the change of the socio-state system greatly change people's views. Don't understand anything else: how can homegrown fascists openly declare themselves in a country that has lost more than 20 million people in the fight against fascism?

D. YAZOV:

- In your words, there is a considerable amount of objectivity in your assessment of what is happening. Naturally, as one of the participants of the Great Patriotic War, I cannot help but feel pain for our country. We literally suffered our common Victory, and someone is now questioning its price.

Humanity has sacrificed more than 50 million human lives on the altar of victory over fascism.

The Soviet Army alone lost about 10 million soldiers and commanders. To forget about this, to devalue the meaning of Victory, is to be an apolitical person who does not know his roots.

After all, a state like Russia has always stood on the positions of true patriotism and self-sacrifice, has grown stronger and more courageous in the fight against enemies. It has a glorious history.

Why are veterans forgotten today, and the lives of ordinary people are getting harder? Because many in the country perceived democracy as complete permissiveness. Because the achievement of freedom in our country is now commonly understood as freedom from moral principles, any moral obligations.

You can watch our television for at least one day: does it foster patriotism among people-Russians, Kabardians, Tatars? It is engaged in spreading fear, creating uncertainty, and instilling Western values in us. It is no wonder why the Barkashovites act openly. The reason for this is permissiveness, impoverishment, and hence the anger of people. And it's like a veil over your eyes.

I am not a supporter of the national Patriots. But I partly understand the aspirations of these people. They unite to stand up for themselves. They like a strong spike, the will to achieve the goal, the desire for a strong hand, discipline. But the symbolism under which they operate, of course, makes me sick. For me, a front-line soldier, all this is connected with such a phenomenon as fascism, against which I fought for several years on the fronts of the most terrible of wars.:

- Dmitry Timofeevich, I fully agree with your assessment of the national television. Take coverage of the war in Chechnya, for example. Only negative reviews were shown about us. And in war, as you know much better than I do, it is not only cowardice, meanness, and filth that manifests itself. There were many examples of courage and high spirit. Both in the Great Patriotic War and during the Chechen events, young fighters, having been ill, ran away from hospitals to return to their unit to perform their military duty, following the eternal laws of combat brotherhood. I knew such guys, real heroes. But I didn't see any stories about them in the media, but there was a lot of savoring of failures and mistakes on the part of the "feds". And I took it as someone's order. It was necessary to once again defame the army, people in uniform.

D. YAZOV:

- It is a fact that the mass media discredited the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation. Take at least the portrait of General Grachev on the background of soldiers ' corpses and other similar facts.

The war in Chechnya was not a defense of the Motherland from an external enemy. This is a conflict within the state. And foreign journalists flew there like flies to honey. Their goal was very specific: to discredit the army, to do everything possible to push Russia to collapse. Our correspondents eagerly imitated Western scribblers. Some of them didn't think much about the consequences of their speeches. And someone, it is possible, worked for money on the side of the enemy.

I am convinced that when a state enters a war, all its material and intellectual resources should be directed to achieving victory. This is evidenced by the experience of the Great Patriotic War, local conflicts of the post-war period. Victory was achieved where the people were united in the name of the main goal.

V. KOLYBABINSKY:

"But even I, still a fairly young officer, found a time when our army was strong and respected. By the way, Comrade Marshal, in 1988 I and my platoon carried out a combat training mission next to you at the exercises. Remember, probably, the last major exercises of the Soviet Army - "Autumn-88"? Now combat training barely shows signs of life.

D. YAZOV:

- Without combat training, a soldier is not a soldier - cannon fodder. Even during the Great Patriotic War, before every major offensive, they found an opportunity to conduct combat training classes. At the front, an armored personnel carrier was organized with live firing. Units and formations were withdrawn and exercises were conducted. They spent live ammunition on exercises, trained people. And moreover, they followed the bursts of artillery shells as if the soldiers were participating in a real battle. No military operation "in two hours by one regiment" is solved.

Vladimir, you have recalled the Autumn-88 exercise. I led them when I was the Minister of Defense. The exercises covered the territories of the Kiev, Odessa, Baltic, and Belarusian military districts, and 7 Warsaw Pact states participated in them. Almost all types and branches of the Armed Forces were involved in the exercises, and an amphibious brigade was landed. They were held in dynamics, as it should be, some samples of equipment were tested on them. There is a very good film "Autumn-88" of the military film studio. And if we were to show it to the people now, it would be possible to understand what we had and lost.

V. KOLYBABINSKY:

- Dmitry Timofeyevich, what could you personally do to reduce these losses? Sorry to be blunt, but you were a high-ranking member of the Politburo. You have always been respected in the army, feared for your rigidity and exactingness. There was even a joke that deciphered your last name in a special way: I'll make the officers sweat... Now we can say, Comrade Marshal, about the situation in the country's top leadership at that time. How do you feel about the "skirmishers of perestroika" now? Agree, we, the military people, would also like to know our "heroes".

D. YAZOV:

- Thank you, Vladimir, for your bold and frank question.

The name Yakovlev Alexander Nikolaevich probably means something to you. Here is what he answers in the newspaper Izvestia for January 17. Question to Yakovlev: "And yet, you served in this system for a long time and held high positions?" The answer of Alexander Nikolaevich: "But of course, it was necessary to finish with her somehow. There are different ways, for example, dissidence. But it is hopeless. It was necessary to act from within. We had only one way: to undermine the totalitarian regime from within with the discipline of the totalitarian party. We did our job..."

This, Vladimir, turns out, was the ideology of the main ideologist of perestroika. And how does another "skirmisher of the new business", who at that time held the post of Foreign Minister, feel about Russia today? Where is the famous nightingale of perestroika Korotich today? In America. That's right, they did their job. Today, many "skirmishers of perestroika" live happily ever after in the richest country in the world, which for some reason can dictate its conditions to other countries, can launch as many missiles as it needs in its interests.:

- Dmitry Timofeyevich, let me ask you directly: when you were the Minister of Defense, our troops were withdrawn from Europe. Did the Ministry of Defense not offer its own options for withdrawing troops, which would not be like fleeing, to the country's leadership?

D. YAZOV:

- Of course, we gave out our proposals, the necessary calculations. But each time we met tough responses from Shevardnadze and the Secretary General, who was then the country's chief economist. We were told only one thing: "The troops have nothing to support..." V. KOLYBABINSKY:

- Comrade Marshal, do we have the right to idealize everything that happened before? After all, there were shortcomings in the Soviet Army that are now flourishing in full bloom: "hazing", protectionism, and insincerity... Have you ever encountered these diseases in your service?

D. YAZOV:

"I'll put it this way. I have served the calendar for more than 52 years. I did not receive a single rank ahead of schedule, I did not pass a single position, and those units, units, formations that I commanded were never the worst. Neither I nor my colleagues ever wanted to show off.

Somewhere in the 47th year, I commanded a company, and in the newspaper "On guard of the Motherland" LenVO published an article "An example of an advanced company". My company.

The standard with which the LenVO troops marched at the Victory Parade was located in our regiment. And near it, after the company took the first place, there were soldiers only of my company. It was understandable that I felt proud, as did my subordinates. All units tried to win the right to protect the standard of the district. What's wrong with that? Is this a fight for show? When I was commanding the division, the 382nd Port Arthur Motorized Rifle Regiment in ZabVO initiated a social competition for the title of excellent regiment. Yes, before that, we re-equipped it with new equipment, built a good storage facility. We created certain conditions for, let's say, the sample. But not just for us. The district at that time had such material resources that many other regiments were also rebuilt, re-equipped, etc. But not everyone has become great. The regiment was the initiator. What does ostentation have to do with it? Don't you do the cleaning when you have visitors? That's what we did.

There must be a leader. The ostentatious part, from which you can learn, should be. There must be an advanced officer. In a word, without a lighthouse, it is impossible either in peacetime or in wartime.

...Hazing relationships is, of course, a pain for the army. I will not go into the background of the question. You should know it as well as I do, Vladimir. The main negative role in creating such an atmosphere was played by the appearance of military personnel with criminal records in the barracks. So they laid down their "traditions". Their roots have grown so deep that they will have to be uprooted for a long time.

V. KOLYBABINSKY:

- I think that one of the factors of survivability of "hazing" is the lack of full-fledged combat training. I know from personal experience that the less a soldier is engaged in combat training, the more opportunities he has for showing hazing relationships.

In Afghanistan, I actually began to forget about "hazing". I have heard that this influence is widespread in the rear divisions and support structures. Where we went to combat operations, the camaraderie and moral atmosphere were at their best.

D. YAZOV:

- It is important to firmly ask for discipline, then there will be order in both combat and rear units.

Vladimir, I would also like to mention the moral atmosphere created in society, which prevented us from working. Sometimes, under the guise of concern for order in the army, all conditions were created for biased criticism of the Armed Forces, indiscriminate groaning of generals and officers. With the light hand of the General Secretary-reformer, all the generals were classified as parasites. Is this a state approach? The country's top leaders did not want to notice that discipline in the army began to fall when state foundations began to weaken, when they gave the "fighters for human souls" from perestroika the opportunity to broadcast whatever they wanted.

V. KOLYBABINSKY:

- The army is a "splinter of society", an attribute of the state. Only the shortcomings in the army look naked, in relief. And this is also understandable. We're in plain sight. After all, it is not by chance that they say that a person manifests himself in an extreme situation. We have such extremes - the entire service. And here, for the commander, experience in working with people is important.

Those who have been in a combat situation more than once have their own unspoken gradation of officers. There are so-called "trench commanders", and there are "promotion officers". The latter are able to curry favor with their superiors, report on time, and prepare documents.

D. YAZOV:

- The question has the right to be raised. There are so many people, so many characters, so many approaches to the service itself. Some take on a heavier load, while others look to avoid it. But...

These people who are dodging, playing tricks, and being clever can at most reach the position of regimental commander, because this is the position where you are clever - not clever, but you need to know everything, see everything, and notice everything. You are responsible for discipline, food, and combat training...

By the way, if you remember, the position of division commander was already the nomenclature of the Central Committee. And the bison were sitting there with a tight grip. The selection of personnel was not an example, I think, of the current one. A person should climb the service ladder step by step, and not fly up, as on a high-speed escalator. This has its own vital logic. When it is broken, we can see what happens at the output.

V. KOLYBABINSKY;

- Comrade Marshal, you have a huge life experience. What would you recommend in the current situation? Maybe the interests of the army can only be defended by those who serve or served, having gone into politics?

D. YAZOV:

- We must rely primarily on ourselves and our comrades-in-arms. Rely on your hard work, honesty, loyalty to the Fatherland and military duty.

I believe that the Russian army will survive in this difficult time. We have strong historical roots.

Let me put it simply: when the rooster bites, we will "put everyone under the gun". But it would be good not to forget the lessons of the past and think about tomorrow today.

People in uniform, in my firm belief, do not need to go into any politics for this. Well, take our deputies. Of all of them, I would highly appreciate only Valentin Ivanovich Varennikov.

Here is another politician - Makashov. Makes noise, shouts, and what is the result?

In other words, the military needs to do their own thing. Our generation has proved worthy of the challenges we face. And today, I see that the Fatherland also has worthy defenders. It remains a small matter-so that there are real defenders of the Armed Forces of the state.

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